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Believe In America.com
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iamme
Joined: 24 Jun 2006
Posts: 333
Location: TEXAS
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 Posted: Tue Aug 08, 2006 10:37 pm Post subject: |
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| tweety wrote: |
We do not want to become a bi-lingual country where Spanish is on the same level as English. We want to be able to continue to go out in public in our own country and hear mostly English spoken just like it has always been before the invasion. Get it now? It is about assimilating out in American society. |
I think the problem is the different experiences we have both had. You grew up with English being spoken commonly, whereas I grew up hearing most everything bi-lingual, with English being dominant. Don't get me wrong, I do understand, but just like you grew up hearing mostly English, I grew up hearing mostly bilingual. I just don't see it as a threat because I see good coming out of this, whereas you see bad. We just had a new H-E-B (grocery store) HUMOUNGOUS! just open and we have several new schools opening, we have new hospitals opening, new businesses starting. We have grown from a small town to a big city. There are new job opportunities forming and everyone is sharing in the experience here. I agree that illegal immigration is bad, but we need more legal immigration. It is not a problem of assimilating here, but rather contributing to our society. I am sorry that the experience is not the same for you and your city/state. Speaking English or Spanish in public is not a problem in mine.
| Quote: | | Doesn't matter what is considered to be American food or how it came about. Tacos, etc. are an ethnic food not American food. You asked about our culture. Well tacos are not a part of it, thats all. I never said there was anything wrong with selling or eating ethnic food. All I am saying is they are not American foods. |
I know that is what you are saying. But the underlying of what you are saying, or atleast what I am getting, is that you do not want to adopt other ethnic foods as American. What I don't understand is what it really matters if America is made up of different cultures. Just like hotdogs and potpies are American food to you, to me pizza and tacos are American food. Other Americans might have different tastes. Not all Americans like hotdogs, pizza, or tacos, which is really why I find it absurd that we should even try to define what American culture is. The American culture you speak of is not the dominant culture and neither is mine. The American culture is a variety of choices that Americans can make because they are free to do so.
| Quote: | | The other things I pointed out like parking cars in the yard, etc. , yes they are part of Mexican culture. At least Mexican poor culture. Not compatible with ours. |
Not really. Mexican culture is something passed down through generations. This is not something passed down through generations, although I do not deny that many do this, but there are many other cultures that do this as well. The majority of them are poor, but it is not part of their culture, but rather a lack of knowing what to do with the cars or etiquette.
| Quote: | | If Mexicans hadn't decided to illegally enter our country en masse, then you wouldn't be hearing so much about them. No other country's citizens have done this, including Canada. I am all for making legal immigration easier but based on our needs not just because there are millions of impoverished Mexicans that want to come here. |
I wouldn't know about this. I will research because I heard that out of the 20+ million coming in illegally, only about 9000 are from Mexico, but those 9000 divide between other Hispanic countries from over seas. It has been admitted that Canada has a porous border, but I've yet to see anyone look into how many Canadians are here illegally.
| Quote: | | It is irrelevant that the 9/11 terrorists came thru Canada. The next time I am sure they will try something different. I am for securing both of our borders, however when you have 12-20 million people that have entered our soulthern border illegally, which border do you think is the most porous, our one with Mexico or Canada? That is why our southern one is the one most focused on. That is why President Bush put the NG on our southern border and not our northern border. You fix the biggest problems first. There is the issue of our soveirngty being violated from the south and all kinds of social issues that it has affected in our country now. Our healthcare, education, population growth and environment are being very negatively effected because of the invasion from the south which is not occuring from our northern border. |
Tweety, this is where anti-illegals come off sounding as racists. Now I know that you are not racists, or else you would be pulling a gringogirl on me, but really 12-20 million people that have entered our southern border illegally? You mean that ALL those illegal immigrants are just from Mexico or are just coming in through Mexico? Like I said, I've yet to hear how many Canadians are in this country illegally. If there is a stat out there, I'd like to see it. Nothing from the Center of Immigration Study, please, they have been known to lie in their stats. Here in the valley, what I am seeing the most of immigration wise, is people from China or the Philipines. They speak their language, their English or Spanish is limited, yet we are proud to have them as an addition to our community. We do not feel threatened by them, nor do we see them as a threat to our Hispanic culture, we just all integrate and enjoy each other. It does give me a sense of being in another country, but it does not bother me, because so long as we can live together as a community and abide the laws and we don't interfere in each others personal lives, then its still America and it makes it all the more beautiful.
I will be very busy this week, so I might not have time to check in on your response until next week. I plan to keep this thread busy with some other issues that I would love to discuss with you. You are helping me learn, and believe me, when I go out into my community, I do think about the things you have said and I try to recognize them as I am about. I think we can all get along if we just learn to understand each other and be respectful about it. Have a good week and take care. |
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tweety
Joined: 21 Jul 2006
Posts: 250
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| Posted: Wed Aug 09, 2006 9:30 am Post subject: |
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I don't know what else to say to you without going over and over the same things again. Your views are just misguided. Hispancs have tunnel vision in this country. They are ethncially focused instead of nationally focused. They forget or want to forget that this country is not a Hispanic country and has had a dominant language and culture of it's own in since it's founding. I believe they resent this since they have taken a strong foothold in our country, especially through illegal immigration and mostly from Mexico. Hispanics want this country to be bi-lingual and bi-cultural. We do not! Hispanics already have their own countries in the western hemisphere and they are mono-lingual and mono-cultural of Hispanic nature.
I am not going to post statistics for you on the fact that Mexicans make up overwhelmingly the illegal population in this country. It has been common knowledge for a long time and reported through many sources. I can't believe that you don't know that. |
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iamme
Joined: 24 Jun 2006
Posts: 333
Location: TEXAS
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| Posted: Wed Aug 09, 2006 11:00 pm Post subject: |
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| tweety wrote: | I don't know what else to say to you without going over and over the same things again. Your views are just misguided. Hispancs have tunnel vision in this country. They are ethncially focused instead of nationally focused. They forget or want to forget that this country is not a Hispanic country and has had a dominant language and culture of it's own in since it's founding. I believe they resent this since they have taken a strong foothold in our country, especially through illegal immigration and mostly from Mexico. Hispanics want this country to be bi-lingual and bi-cultural. We do not! Hispanics already have their own countries in the western hemisphere and they are mono-lingual and mono-cultural of Hispanic nature.
I am not going to post statistics for you on the fact that Mexicans make up overwhelmingly the illegal population in this country. It has been common knowledge for a long time and reported through many sources. I can't believe that you don't know that. |
Tweety, you are right, we can go in circles and never come to an agreement on the issue. Although I can agree that English has been a dominant language, the culture you speak of was one that was forced on many Americans and frankly, some of us don't and never have felt comfortable with it. We want to be ourselves and it is not fair that you think only you can choose which culture is the dominant one because really, the issue is nothing we have control of. Ever heard of the Treaty of Hidalgo? Well, my ancestors were living in Tejas when it was conquered and became Texas. The Treaty of Hidalgo included some promises made by the US that were never kept. Is it fair to bring up your ancestors and exclude the promise made to mine just because yours was the dominant culture then? Well, that's in the past and I think we all have to let go of it and look to the future. It really surprises me that someone who defends the freedom of speach could think that that right is reserved to only those who speak English. I understand that this country is predominantly English, but to me that is in terms of texts and schools and official documents. To me, that should not concern advertisment, television, and even a public discussion, because just like Spanish speakers have the right to choose, to speak, to express themselves, English speakers have the right to just not listen, change the channel, and ignore.
As for Hispanics having their own mono-lingual and mono-cultural country, you are right. But that is not by choice, rather because who the hell wants to migrate to a country with a corrupt government? If Mexico, with it's beauty, had the same government as America, people would be migrating there legally and illegally.
As for statistics, that is ok. I don't want to look up statistics either, but I have never said that Mexicans don't make up a large majority of the illegal immigrants. My point was, that not all are from just Mexico, but other Hispanic countries as well. Also, not all 20+ are JUST from Mexico. There are illegals from China, Africa, India, etc. Also, I've not heard on how many Canadians are here illegally either, but that wouldn't matter because they speak English, look "American", and have no resemblance to terrorists. |
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tweety
Joined: 21 Jul 2006
Posts: 250
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| Posted: Thu Aug 10, 2006 8:55 am Post subject: |
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| iamme wrote: | | tweety wrote: | I don't know what else to say to you without going over and over the same things again. Your views are just misguided. Hispancs have tunnel vision in this country. They are ethncially focused instead of nationally focused. They forget or want to forget that this country is not a Hispanic country and has had a dominant language and culture of it's own in since it's founding. I believe they resent this since they have taken a strong foothold in our country, especially through illegal immigration and mostly from Mexico. Hispanics want this country to be bi-lingual and bi-cultural. We do not! Hispanics already have their own countries in the western hemisphere and they are mono-lingual and mono-cultural of Hispanic nature.
I am not going to post statistics for you on the fact that Mexicans make up overwhelmingly the illegal population in this country. It has been common knowledge for a long time and reported through many sources. I can't believe that you don't know that. |
Tweety, you are right, we can go in circles and never come to an agreement on the issue. Although I can agree that English has been a dominant language, the culture you speak of was one that was forced on many Americans and frankly, some of us don't and never have felt comfortable with it. We want to be ourselves and it is not fair that you think only you can choose which culture is the dominant one because really, the issue is nothing we have control of. Ever heard of the Treaty of Hidalgo? Well, my ancestors were living in Tejas when it was conquered and became Texas. The Treaty of Hidalgo included some promises made by the US that were never kept. Is it fair to bring up your ancestors and exclude the promise made to mine just because yours was the dominant culture then? Well, that's in the past and I think we all have to let go of it and look to the future. It really surprises me that someone who defends the freedom of speach could think that that right is reserved to only those who speak English. I understand that this country is predominantly English, but to me that is in terms of texts and schools and official documents. To me, that should not concern advertisment, television, and even a public discussion, because just like Spanish speakers have the right to choose, to speak, to express themselves, English speakers have the right to just not listen, change the channel, and ignore.
As for Hispanics having their own mono-lingual and mono-cultural country, you are right. But that is not by choice, rather because who the hell wants to migrate to a country with a corrupt government? If Mexico, with it's beauty, had the same government as America, people would be migrating there legally and illegally.
As for statistics, that is ok. I don't want to look up statistics either, but I have never said that Mexicans don't make up a large majority of the illegal immigrants. My point was, that not all are from just Mexico, but other Hispanic countries as well. Also, not all 20+ are JUST from Mexico. There are illegals from China, Africa, India, etc. Also, I've not heard on how many Canadians are here illegally either, but that wouldn't matter because they speak English, look "American", and have no resemblance to terrorists. |
Doesn't matter how the language and culture of this country came about being what it is or if it was forced on anyone. It is what it is, live with it or go elsewhere. I didn't choose it! We don't mind a sprinking of other cultures and languages in this country, we just don't wish it to be bi-lingual and bi-cultural in nature.
How about how the Spaniards forced their language and culture on the Native Indians and Mexicans? I don't see any Mexicans complaining about that. They adopted Spanish as their language and much of the culture too. But then they come to the United States and then complain that they have to adapt to us.
Again, freedom of speech means having the right to express one's viewpoint. It is not about language. I have already stated that yes in this country you do have the right to speak another language but there is a time a place for it without being rude, thats all.
They latest stats I have read on Canadian illegals here is around 9,000. That is minute compared to the huge numbers mostly from Mexico. Our opposition to illegal aliens has nothing to do with skin color, looks or what language they speek. Sure most people form terrorists countries have darker skin but anyone can be a terrorist no matter what their skin color is.
Not many people migrate to Mexico, that is true. But there are other Latin/South American countries where migration does occur and yet these countries are adamant about retaining their language and culture in spite of these migrants. I say bravo to them! I like the uniqueness of each country. I don't wish that to change. And I like the uniqueness of this country too. A melting pot is ok but not a salad bowl. Otherwise we lose our unique identity. |
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butterbean
Joined: 21 Jun 2006
Posts: 2271
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| Posted: Thu Aug 10, 2006 9:11 am Post subject: |
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Tweety, you are right, we can go in circles and never come to an agreement on the issue. Although I can agree that English has been a dominant language, the culture you speak of was one that was forced on many Americans and frankly, some of us don't and never have felt comfortable with it. We want to be ourselves and it is not fair that you think only you can choose which culture is the dominant one because really, the issue is nothing we have control of. Ever heard of the Treaty of Hidalgo? Well, my ancestors were living in Tejas when it was conquered and became Texas. The Treaty of Hidalgo included some promises made by the US that were never kept. Is it fair to bring up your ancestors and exclude the promise made to mine just because yours was the dominant culture then? Well, that's in the past and I think we all have to let go of it and look to the future. It really surprises me that someone who defends the freedom of speach could think that that right is reserved to only those who speak English. I understand that this country is predominantly English, but to me that is in terms of texts and schools and official documents. To me, that should not concern advertisment, television, and even a public discussion, because just like Spanish speakers have the right to choose, to speak, to express themselves, English speakers have the right to just not listen, change the channel, and ignore.
As for Hispanics having their own mono-lingual and mono-cultural country, you are right. But that is not by choice, rather because who the hell wants to migrate to a country with a corrupt government? If Mexico, with it's beauty, had the same government as America, people would be migrating there legally and illegally.
As for statistics, that is ok. I don't want to look up statistics either, but I have never said that Mexicans don't make up a large majority of the illegal immigrants. My point was, that not all are from just Mexico, but other Hispanic countries as well. Also, not all 20+ are JUST from Mexico. There are illegals from China, Africa, India, etc. Also, I've not heard on how many Canadians are here illegally either, but that wouldn't matter because they speak English, look "American", and have no resemblance to terrorists.
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iamme, you need to go to another website where you can fit in with all the other OBLs.
English was NEVER forced on anyone. People who came here knew that it would be a privelege and were yearning to learn the language and the customs of Americans.
Most of the illegal aliens come from Mexico. Just google it and you will find hundreds of FACTS and STATISTICS as proof.
I would be more concerned with our southern border and what kind of people come from there, than I would be of our northern border.
Mexico is known for it's criminals, and corruption at all levels of it's government. Mexico is especially known for it's drug cartels and Mexican Mafia. I find it hard to overlook Mexico's reputation as 3rd world cess-pool, that have had generation after generation of criminal rapists, sexual molesters, women beaters, theives and drug runners. Very little is remembered of the good people that come from Mexico, because of all the riff-raff that crosses over our borders. I DO know there are some really good people who come from Mexico and South America, BUT, these criminals have made me much more judgemental toward them. In other words, they have made their acceptance much harder for me to take, than for any other immigrants who come from other parts of the world.
It is true that the terrorists probably came over the northern border, but now we are aware of it as well as the Canadian government. But the Canadian law enforcers have good reputations for keeping the law and the border legally intact. However, the Mexican government is well-known for their corruption and would more likely accept payments from terrorists for smuggling people and weapons over the border. Thats just the way it is.
Why do you insist on getting all perturbd over people of different nationalities. Everytime you bring them up, you keep referring to people that "look American". What do you mean by this? Are you ashamed of yourself for some reason? Because in alot of other posts you have written, you always make reference to Jennifer Lopez. Its always "I speak english as clear as Jennifer Lopez", or "I have light skin and blonde streaks in my hair, just like Jennifer Lopez". Sorry, but you arent her, and I'm not Bridgett Wilson either. (The Wedding Planner)
What do you mean by "who the hell wants to migrate to a country with a corrupt government"? Mexico will NEVER have a government like America! It is corrupt and you admit it. So what makes you think we want all of Mexico's corrupt baggage?
Well, ho-hum and YAWN  - I'm done for the day. Disagreeing with you makes me dizzy and tired. BYE 
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iamme
Joined: 24 Jun 2006
Posts: 333
Location: TEXAS
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| Posted: Thu Aug 10, 2006 1:42 pm Post subject: |
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| butterbean wrote: |
iamme, you need to go to another website where you can fit in with all the other OBLs.
English was NEVER forced on anyone. People who came here knew that it would be a privelege and were yearning to learn the language and the customs of Americans.
Most of the illegal aliens come from Mexico. Just google it and you will find hundreds of FACTS and STATISTICS as proof.
I would be more concerned with our southern border and what kind of people come from there, than I would be of our northern border.
Mexico is known for it's criminals, and corruption at all levels of it's government. Mexico is especially known for it's drug cartels and Mexican Mafia. I find it hard to overlook Mexico's reputation as 3rd world cess-pool, that have had generation after generation of criminal rapists, sexual molesters, women beaters, theives and drug runners. Very little is remembered of the good people that come from Mexico, because of all the riff-raff that crosses over our borders. I DO know there are some really good people who come from Mexico and South America, BUT, these criminals have made me much more judgemental toward them. In other words, they have made their acceptance much harder for me to take, than for any other immigrants who come from other parts of the world.
It is true that the terrorists probably came over the northern border, but now we are aware of it as well as the Canadian government. But the Canadian law enforcers have good reputations for keeping the law and the border legally intact. However, the Mexican government is well-known for their corruption and would more likely accept payments from terrorists for smuggling people and weapons over the border. Thats just the way it is.
Why do you insist on getting all perturbd over people of different nationalities. Everytime you bring them up, you keep referring to people that "look American". What do you mean by this? Are you ashamed of yourself for some reason? Because in alot of other posts you have written, you always make reference to Jennifer Lopez. Its always "I speak english as clear as Jennifer Lopez", or "I have light skin and blonde streaks in my hair, just like Jennifer Lopez". Sorry, but you arent her, and I'm not Bridgett Wilson either. (The Wedding Planner)
What do you mean by "who the hell wants to migrate to a country with a corrupt government"? Mexico will NEVER have a government like America! It is corrupt and you admit it. So what makes you think we want all of Mexico's corrupt baggage?
Well, ho-hum and YAWN - I'm done for the day. Disagreeing with you makes me dizzy and tired. BYE
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Yes, disagreeing can be very tiresome. Just so you know, it's tiresome for me too and I sometimes get discouraged about taking a stand for what I believe. Unlike you, however, I know that if I don't take a stand, even when things seem futile, I will never accomplish anything.
English was forced on many and not everyone immigrating to America came "yearning" to learn the English language. I can provide links to historical facts that point out the subtle and not so subtle force that was used on immigrants, and like I said before, many times, it backfired. Even Dream pointed out how slaves were forced to learn the language.
I know that the majority of illegals come from Mexico, but it does not make 20+ million of them. That is what I am trying to point out. As for Canada, I can also provide links that prove how it has been known for a long time that more drug comes in through our Northern border than it does from our southern border. Also, the Canadian government has done little on the terrorist they harbor. I can provide link to this as well. The rist of terrorist coming in from Canada are just as great as they were on or before 9/11, than they are coming in from Mexico. The Canadian border is not as legally intact as our southern border. Want links, I can get them for you.
The reason I say that people "look American" is because that's the reality of it for you guys. I will never look American because I look Hispanic, and Hispanics will always be confused for being illegal. Just like blacks will be confused as coming from Africa, Chinese from China (an those that don't know the difference - Japan or the Philippines). If only it were true that I could call myself an American, without having to regard to my race like I have been catagorized all my life as well as many others have. However, when the Anglo's find it convenient for them, the call us American and when they don't, they call us Mexican. I can provide a link to historical facts on this, some that sound very similar to what you guys are arguing with me about. I think you guys need to understand that I will not be another Seguin, nor another American tossed onto Mexican soil for looking Hispanic. I'm with you on illegal immigration, but against you on what being American means.
As for Mexico NEVER having a government like America, well, that's not a fact but an opinion. Mexico does have a corrupt government but not all Mexicans are corrupt like the government. It is one of the reasons that they come here illegally. Some, yes, continue the example of what they have learned in Mexico's corrupt government, but not all. Let me ask you a question. Consider that your predictions come true, and that America becomes another Mexico, and there is very little of you to do anything about it. What are you going to do? Are you going to suck it up, let go of all your lovely possessions because you can't afford it to the point where you have to build your own shacks out of tin and cardboard? And assuming you work earning $75 a week and you have a family to provide for? And, assuming that immigration law to enter Canada was as tough as it is to enter America from Mexico on such low salary, what are you going to do if you know that by staying you are slowly starving your children and yourself? What are you going to do when your children ask for something that is so simple such as taking them to eat at McDonalds, or going to the movies, and you can't even give them that? There are ways to earn more money, risky and life threatening, but you have to resort to corruption, or, you can go to Canada illegally and make a better life for yourself. Take into consideration that what ever you do, your children will be learning from you. What would you do? Let's say you have illegally entered into Canada and have been living in the shadows for risk of being deported and there is a glitch in the system that could hold the key to you being able to live comfortable and legal, what would you do? Let's say the majority of Canadians spoke Chinese and worshipped Budah, but not all, some (the 2nd majority) spoke American and worshipped God, how long do you think it would take you to assimilate and what would you be more comfortable with? Just a thought for you to consider, because that's what this might all turn out to be like. Illegal immigration is the problem, not culture and language preferrance. Or do you really think you make friends by criticising people on how they look or speak? I have no doubt in my mind that the day we do away with illegal immigration, the next battle will involve you and another culture (most likely Hispanics), just because we don't see a reason to jump just because you want us to. Tough luck! There are new leaders in town and they are no longer just white and American. |
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butterbean
Joined: 21 Jun 2006
Posts: 2271
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| Posted: Thu Aug 10, 2006 4:09 pm Post subject: |
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I know that the majority of illegals come from Mexico, but it does not make 20+ million of them. That is what I am trying to point out. As for Canada, I can also provide links that prove how it has been known for a long time that more drug comes in through our Northern border than it does from our southern border. Also, the Canadian government has done little on the terrorist they harbor. I can provide link to this as well. The rist of terrorist coming in from Canada are just as great as they were on or before 9/11, than they are coming in from Mexico. The Canadian border is not as legally intact as our southern border. Want links, I can get them for you.
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Okay iamme. Please provide a bonafide link that states Canada is worse where drugs and terrorists are concerned.
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The reason I say that people "look American" is because that's the reality of it for you guys. I will never look American because I look Hispanic, and Hispanics will always be confused for being illegal. |
I really dont care if you are blue. Tell me, WHAT DOES AN AMERICAN LOOK LIKE???? And what makes you think I am Anglo? You just like to assume that most people on these anti-illegal forums are "white", dont you??
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As for Mexico NEVER having a government like America, well, that's not a fact but an opinion. Mexico does have a corrupt government but not all Mexicans are corrupt like the government. It is one of the reasons that they come here illegally |
Did I say that ALL Mexicans were corrupt??
| Quote: | | of what they have learned in Mexico's corrupt government, but not all. Let me ask you a question. Consider that your predictions come true, and that America becomes another Mexico, and there is very little of you to do anything about it. What are you going to do? Are you going to suck it up, let go of all your lovely possessions because you can't afford it to the point where you have to build your own shacks out of tin and cardboard? |
First of all, you are dreaming! Americans are already witnessing California sinking into a 3rd world cess-pool, and they are now waking up! Americans do not want to live in that kind of unsettled, criminal, seedy culture. Thats why they are all scrambling to get out of California and moving.
IAMME, YOU ARE A PISTOL.  |
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iamme
Joined: 24 Jun 2006
Posts: 333
Location: TEXAS
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| Posted: Tue Aug 15, 2006 12:37 am Post subject: |
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| butterbean wrote: |
Okay iamme. Please provide a bonafide link that states Canada is worse where drugs and terrorists are concerned. |
I will apologize on this one because I did not save the links. I might have misunderstood the articles. The ones I have found read that “more potent marijuana” is coming in from Canada. The rise in drug trafficking is increasing, however, and Canada does pose a threat to America when it comes to terrorists. I am going to provide some links that point to this, but they are not the links I was referring to when I posted my last comment. I didn’t save those and am having a hard time finding them. Here are some other links that imply what I was referring to, although I cannot accurately say if they are bonafide or not. I still maintain that an equal amount of drugs, if not more, come in through canada considering that the border with Canada is not as closely guarded as our southern border, yet it is bigger and less secured. I am only sorry that I do not have the sources to prove that.
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2006/07/01/AR2006070100906.html?nav=rss_nation/science
http://www.usdoj.gov/ndic/pubs11/18862/marijuan.htm
http://www.king5.com/localnews/stories/NW_080806WABbordersecurityEL.6f1ea26.html
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I really dont care if you are blue. Tell me, WHAT DOES AN AMERICAN LOOK LIKE???? And what makes you think I am Anglo? You just like to assume that most people on these anti-illegal forums are "white", dont you?? |
Good question, butterbean, what does an American look like? I thought an American looks like anyone, but it turns out that that is not true. If they look Mexican, speak Mexican, then they are Mexican or Hispanic. If they look Chinese, speak Chinese, then they are Chinese. Etc. I never said you were Anglo and I know that not everone who is in this anti-illegal forum is white or anglo, but it does not mean that they have not adopted the Anglo culture. The underlying truth is this, and let me see if I can put it into words, many Americans of all colors have been raised with the influence of the Anglo culture, thus, to them, that is what being American is. The anglo culture did a great job in the past of making itself look to be like the ideal fun and happy life, so much so, that people started to assimilate it. Although some assimilated the culture out of want to lead the Anglo dream, others had to assimilate through force and dominance. Somewhere along the line, the reality of what had just happened, most everyone lost track and just began to assume that the anglo culture was the American culture. The reality of it was that this country had been bullied to become Anglonized and, in my opinion, what was the seen to be the anglo dream was converted into what is the American dream. However, those that know the reality, who have had family or those of the same race who have been discriminated and abused through our history, have a resentment toward the treatment we have received. Many of us refuse to be anglonized, and we know we have a right to that. I think that most of us agree that everyone who comes to America needs to learn English, but we draw the line there. So long as they follow the laws, work, and lead their own lives, then to us, they are welcomed. We don’t care who speaks what in public, or who does what on their own property or homes, so long as it doesn’t interfere with our own lives then more power to them. The smart thing to do is to control our population, but that means deciding when it’s ok to allow immigrants in and when it isn’t ok. The smart thing to do is to know who is in this country legally and who isn’t. What is not smart, is trying to degrade a group of people based on their race or the language they speak in public, just because the majority of illegal immigrants are of the same race. I find it incredible that when I referred to the bad American’s that do worse things than many illegals, many quickly jumped to say that those were our own and that we do not need illegals bringing in more. Yet, many of the statistics being put on this forum regard Hispanics who are American, are they not your own too? Conveniently not. It is not convenient for Hispanics to be American at the moment. The majority of illegal immigrants coming into America are from Hispanic nations. The only time I’ve heard Hispanics since May 1st be put on a good light is when other’s try to cover up their racism by implying that they have some Hispanics backing them up as well. Then they turn around and flash terrible statistics about Hispanics in general, no matter if the statistics include legal American Hispanics. That’s not to say that many of those statistics have been exaggerated, and offer an unfair portrayal of Hispanics because illegal immigrants who have not been here for long are also included in the count. Don't get me wrong, I have nothing against whites or Anglos. I just don't like those who have adopted the Anglo culture or are the Anglo culture and are demanding that I adopt it too or else I need to go back to Mexico, a country from which I am not from.
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Did I say that ALL Mexicans were corrupt?? |
No, but you did imply that you did not want all of Mexico's corrupt baggage. Like I said in other words, not ALL are Mexico's corrupt baggage, some are just people trying to escape a corrupt government. It is not to say that what you say carries no value. I agree that we need to secure the borders because I also agree that many crimes committed by illegals can be avoided if we just secure it. The only reason I point this out is because I am only defending the good illegal immigrants who are in this country whom I think deserve to atleast have access to a guest worker program.
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First of all, you are dreaming! Americans are already witnessing California sinking into a 3rd world cess-pool, and they are now waking up! Americans do not want to live in that kind of unsettled, criminal, seedy culture. Thats why they are all scrambling to get out of California and moving. |
Butterbean, even your response implies that you believe this country is slowly becoming a third world country. I did say I was assuming, but how far am I from what might be a reality? You did not answer the questions, which is fine, but I wonder what our futures hold. Assuming what I asked were a reality, I admit that I would prefer to live in Canada illegally if there were no other choice. You state Americans are scrambling to get out of California and moving, so what will happen when they have no where else to go? This is the reality in Mexico, and IF what others say about America becoming a third world country is true, this might turn out to be the reality of America’s future. |
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tweety
Joined: 21 Jul 2006
Posts: 250
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| Posted: Tue Aug 15, 2006 11:31 am Post subject: |
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President Theodore Roosevelt's speech on "Immigrants and being an American" - 1907:
"In the first place, we should insist that if the immigrant who comes here in good faith becomes an American and assimilates himself to us, he shall be treated on an exact equal with everyone else, for it is an outrage to discriminate against any such man because of creed or birthplace, or origin. But this is predicated upon the person becoming in every facet an American and nothing but an American. There can be no divided allegiance here.
Any man who says he is an American but something else also, isn't an American at all. We have room but for one flag, the American flag. We have room but for one language here and that is the English language and we have room but for one sole loyalty and this is a loyalty to the American people."
Theodore Roosevelt was a very wise man. What struck me the most about his speech was his last sentence.... "Those who are showing allegiance to a foreign country or to a foreign country's citizens instead of loyalty to American citizens are indeed not Americans at all." .... No truer words were spoken. |
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iamme
Joined: 24 Jun 2006
Posts: 333
Location: TEXAS
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| Posted: Fri Aug 18, 2006 12:55 am Post subject: |
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Here are few other quotes from wise people on loyalty and patriotism:
Our country is the world, our countrymen are all mankind. We love the land of our nativity, only as we love all other lands. The interests, rights, and liberties of American citizens are no more dear to us than are those of the whole human race. Hence we can allow no appeal to patriotism, to revenge any national insult or injury. ~William Lloyd Garrison, Declaration of Sentiments, Boston Peace Conference, 1838
It is lamentable, that to be a good patriot one must become the enemy of the rest of mankind. ~Voltaire, Philosophical Dictionary
He is a poor patriot whose patriotism does not enable him to understand how all men everywhere feel about their altars and their hearthstones, their flag and their fatherland. ~Harry Emerson Fosdick
To him in whom love dwells, the whole world is but one family. ~Buddha
I have no sense of nationalism, only a cosmic consciousness of belonging to the human family. ~Rosika Schwimmer
I couldn't help but say to [Mr. Gorbachev], just think how easy his task and mine might be in these meetings that we held if suddenly there was a threat to this world from another planet. [We'd] find out once and for all that we really are all human beings here on this earth together. ~Ronald Reagan, 1985
EDITH CAVELL:
I realise that patriotism is not enough. I must have no hatred or bitterness towards anyone.
GEORGE WILLIAM CURTIS:
A man's country is not a certain area of land, of mountains, rivers, and woods, but it is a principle and patriotism is loyalty to that principle.
HENRY STEELE COMMAGER:
Men in authority will always think that criticism of their policies is dangerous. They will always equate their policies with patriotism, and find criticism subversive.
HERMANN GOERING:
Naturally the common people don't want war; neither in Russia, nor in England, nor in America, nor in Germany. That is understood. But after all, it is the leaders of the country who determine policy, and it is always a simple matter to drag the people along, whether it is a democracy, or a fascist dictatorship, or a parliament, or a communist dictatorship. Voice or no voice, the people can always be brought to the bidding of the leaders. That is easy. All you have to do is to tell them they are being attacked, and denounce the pacifists for lack of patriotism and exposing the country to danger. It works the same in any country.
HOWARD THURMAN:
During times of war, hatred becomes quite respectable, even though it has to masquerade often under the guise of patriotism.
JAWAHARIAL NEHRU:
A moment comes, which comes but rarely in history, when we step out from the old to the new, when an age ends, and when the sound of a nation, long suppressed, finds utterance.
Finally, my favority because he reminds me of my father (RIP),
Mohandas K. Gandhi:
It may be long before the law of love will be recognized
in international affairs. The machinery's of government
stand between and hide the hearts of one people
from those of another.
To forgive is not to forget. The merit lies in loving in spite of the vivid
knowledge that the one that must be loved is not a friend.
You assist an evil system most effectively by obeying its orders and decrees.
An evil system never deserves such allegiance.
Allegiance to it means partaking of the evil.
A good person will resist an evil system with his or her whole soul. |
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tweety
Joined: 21 Jul 2006
Posts: 250
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| Posted: Fri Aug 18, 2006 9:22 am Post subject: |
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| It still all comes down to what it means to be a real American per Theodore Roosevelt who was a President and not just some writer of viewpoints. All those quotes you posted are mostly about human kindness in general. Human kindness does not nullify the soveirgnty and the immigration laws of this country. |
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iamme
Joined: 24 Jun 2006
Posts: 333
Location: TEXAS
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| Posted: Sat Aug 19, 2006 2:03 am Post subject: |
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| tweety wrote: | | It still all comes down to what it means to be a real American per Theodore Roosevelt who was a President and not just some writer of viewpoints. All those quotes you posted are mostly about human kindness in general. Human kindness does not nullify the soveirgnty and the immigration laws of this country. |
Tweety, with all due respect, but you cannot credit one and discredit the other just because one has the title of President, and the other the title of writer. The president is a mere human being who had the priviledge (by accident) to sit in such position. He was a great president, but his speech continues to be his viewpoint as a human, just like the writers. However, I will say this, our fore fathers built this nation in accordance to the Bible. It was their wish that we should always look into the teachings of the bible when building and accommodating our principles of America. They also wanted us, as Americans, to turn to the bible for our answers whenever we decided it was time to change the laws. Here are some quotes from our founding fathers, who hold a higher position than Theodore Roosevelt in my opinion, and one such Father, who holds a higher position than all of us combined. Take care.
"We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness. "– The Declaration of Independence
Alexander Hamilton:
"The sacred rights of mankind are not to be rummaged for among old parchments or musty records. They are written, as with a sunbeam, in the whole volume of human nature by the hand of the Divinity itself, and can never be erased or obscured by mortal power."
Thomas Jefferson:
"On every question of construction of the Constitution, let us carry ourselves back to the time when the Constitution was adopted, recollect the spirit manifested in the debates, and instead of trying what meaning may be squeezed out of the text, or invented against it, conform to the probable one in which it was passed."
Abigail Adams
"A patriot without religion in my estimation is as great a paradox as an honest Man without the fear of God. Is it possible that he whom no moral obligations bind, can have any real Good Will towards Men? Can he be a patriot who, by an openly vicious conduct, is undermining the very bonds of Society?....The Scriptures tell us "righteousness exalteth a Nation."
“The Bible was America’s basic textbook
in all fields.” - Noah Webster
"The cause of America is in a great measure the cause of all mankind. Where, some say, is the king of America? I'll tell you, friend, He reigns above."
Thomas Paine
The role of government according to the bible:
Romans 13:1-7
1 Let every soul be subject to the governing authorities. For there is no authority except from God, and the authorities that exist are appointed by God. 2 Therefore whoever resists the authority resists the ordinance of God and those who resist will bring judgment on themselves. 3 For rulers are not a terror to good works, but to evil. Do you want to be unafraid of the authority? Do what is good, and you will have praise from the same. 4 For he is God’s minister to you for good. But if you do evil, be afraid; for he does not bear the sword in vain; for he is God’s minister, an avenger to execute wrath on him who practices evil. Romans 13
“You shall not wrong an alien, neither shall you oppress him, for you were aliens in the land of Egypt.
(Exodus 22:21)
You shall not glean your vineyard, neither shall you gather the fallen grapes of your vineyard; you shall leave them for the poor and for the foreigner. I am Yahweh your God.
(Leviticus 19:10)
” ‘If a stranger lives as a foreigner with you in your land, you shall not do him wrong. The stranger who lives as a foreigner with you shall be to you as the native-born among you, and you shall love him as yourself; for you lived as foreigners in the land of Egypt. I am Yahweh your God.
(Leviticus 19:33-34)
For Yahweh your God, he is God of gods, and Lord of lords, the great God, the mighty, and the awesome, who doesn’t regard persons, nor takes reward. He does execute justice for the fatherless and widow, and loves the foreigner, in giving him food and clothing. Therefore love the foreigner; for you were foreigners in the land of Egypt.
(Deuteronomy 10:17-19)
Cursed be he who wrests the justice due to the foreigner, fatherless, and widow. All the people shall say, Amen.
(Deuteronomy 27:19)
Moreover concerning the foreigner, who is not of your people Israel, when he shall come out of a far country for your name’s sake (for they shall hear of your great name, and of your mighty hand, and of your outstretched arm); when he shall come and pray toward this house; hear in heaven, your dwelling place, and do according to all that the foreigner calls to you for; that all the peoples of the earth may know your name, to fear you, as does your people Israel, and that they may know that this house which I have built is called by my name.
(1 Kings 8:41-43)
(the foreigner has not lodged in the street, but I have opened my doors to the traveler);
(Job 31:32)
Yahweh, how long will the wicked, how long will the wicked triumph? They pour out arrogant words. All the evildoers boast. They break your people in pieces, Yahweh, and afflict your heritage. They kill the widow and the alien, and murder the fatherless.
(Psalms 94:3-6)
Don’t oppress the widow, nor the fatherless, the foreigner, nor the poor; and let none of you devise evil against his brother in your heart.’
(Zechariah 7:10)
“But when the Son of Man comes in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then he will sit on the throne of his glory. Before him all the nations will be gathered, and he will separate them one from another, as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats. He will set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left. Then the King will tell those on his right hand, ‘Come, blessed of my Father, inherit the Kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world; for I was hungry, and you gave me food to eat. I was thirsty, and you gave me drink. I was a stranger, and you took me in. I was naked, and you clothed me. I was sick, and you visited me. I was in prison, and you came to me.’ “Then the righteous will answer him, saying, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry, and feed you; or thirsty, and give you a drink? When did we see you as a stranger, and take you in; or naked, and clothe you? When did we see you sick, or in prison, and come to you?’ “The King will answer them, ‘Most certainly I tell you, inasmuch as you did it to one of the least of these my brothers, you did it to me.’ Then he will say also to those on the left hand, ‘Depart from me, you cursed, into the eternal fire which is prepared for the devil and his angels; for I was hungry, and you didn’t give me food to eat; I was thirsty, and you gave me no drink; I was a stranger, and you didn’t take me in; naked, and you didn’t clothe me; sick, and in prison, and you didn’t visit me.’ “Then they will also answer, saying, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry, or thirsty, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and didn’t help you?’ “Then he will answer them, saying, ‘Most certainly I tell you, inasmuch as you didn’t do it to one of the least of these, you didn’t do it to me.’ These will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.”
(Matthew 25:31-46)
By faith, Abraham, when he was called, obeyed to go out to the place which he was to receive for an inheritance. He went out, not knowing where he went. By faith, he lived as an alien in the land of promise, as in a land not his own, dwelling in tents, with Isaac and Jacob, the heirs with him of the same promise. For he looked for the city which has the foundations, whose builder and maker is God.
(Hebrews 11:8-10) |
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tweety
Joined: 21 Jul 2006
Posts: 250
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| Posted: Sat Aug 19, 2006 9:43 am Post subject: |
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Then I guess every country in the world is going against the grain of God's teachings by having soveirgn borders and laws that are in the best interests of it's citizens, according to you.
You take all of those words and statements far too literally. God said obey the laws of the land and that charity begins at home. You totally forget the ten commandments too. |
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Patriot
Site Admin
Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 471
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| Posted: Sun Aug 20, 2006 8:24 am Post subject: |
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In the old testament verses you quote, you need to remember that God never told Israel to accept strangers who were not going to assimilate or convert to Judaism. Pagans were never allowed to continue to worship their false gods while living in Israel. They were to accept God as the one true God and have no other gods before him. God judged israel many times because of allowing strangers to influence them to worship false gods instead of Israel influencing them to worship the one true God. He did that by bringing them into captivity. In other words he took away their land.
A stranger passing through and a stranger moving in to stay are two different things I would think. If I get time Ill look into that more closely.
The Philistines did not come into downtown Jerusalem and start waving the Philistine flag. That is a sign of conquest and would have brought down the wrath of the Armies of Israel upon them.
A central theme in the old testament outside of the promise of a Savior is that Israel will inherit the land that is given to them by God. It doesnt belong to Egypt, Syria etc. It was given to Israel by God. The book of 1 kings mentions the borders of the land that King Solomon was ruler over, agian showing borders are important.
Land and borders were very important in the old testament. It was your lively hood. They also had walls around cities back then to keep out the enemy and let in only who they felt was not a threat. Jerusalem is still walled today.
Concerning America I would like to remind you that we send out the most Christian missionaries in the world. The Church I currently am a member of and the one I was previously a member of before I moved support missionaries to Mexico and beyond. These missionary families bring them the gospel of Jesus Christ so that they may be saved from their sin as well as help these people escape their poverty. They help them where they are because they have a love for them that God has put in their heart. Many Americans do have compassion on the third world poor and show it by their actions and giving of finances. But that does not mean that we wish to absorb the masses of the third world. How can we help them, if this nation is over run by them.
Americans dont mind immigrants who come here legally and work to become Americans. Thats not a lot to ask. Also Romans chapter 13 applies to the immigrant as well. This Government has laws that govern this land and they are instructed by that verse to obey them. In other words they are commanded to enter this country the right way.
Patriot |
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iamme
Joined: 24 Jun 2006
Posts: 333
Location: TEXAS
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| Posted: Sun Aug 20, 2006 12:10 pm Post subject: |
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| tweety wrote: | Then I guess every country in the world is going against the grain of God's teachings by having soveirgn borders and laws that are in the best interests of it's citizens, according to you.
You take all of those words and statements far too literally. God said obey the laws of the land and that charity begins at home. You totally forget the ten commandments too. |
Tweety, not every country in the world is founded on Christian principles like America. Allowing you credit on that, I do still believe that we must secure our borders, but given that, we must not also treat those who are here illegally as if they have no rights. Our founding fathers had a vision for America, and that was that we could spread our vision through out the world of peace and equality for men. We cannot do that if we must turn every illegal immigrant back to the border without giving them a fair trial. Until other nations learn the example of America, until then can we look for open borders. Still, until then, we must secure our own. Yes, other countries go against the grains of God's teaching because other countries are not dominant in the Christian faith. They have their own God's, merciless Gods at time. I think we can agree that the God we believe in wants peace through out the world and that we should treat each other like brothers and sisters. The only way, in my opinion, that that can be accomplished is if we all believe in the same God. |
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