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The Fox · Joined: 23 Jun 2006 Posts: 112

THE WAR

Please take the time to read the attached essay by Dr. Chong. It is without a doubt the most articulate and convincing writing I have read regarding the War in Iraq. If you have any doubts please open your mind to his essay and give a fair evaluation.

I had no idea who Dr. Chong is or the source of these thoughts... so when
I received them, I almost deleted them - as well-written as they are. But
then I did a "Google search" on the Doctor and found him to be a retired
Air Force Surgeon of all things and past Commander of Wilford Hall
Medical Center in San Antonio. So he is real, is connected to Veterans
affairs in California, and these are his thoughts. They are worth reading
and thinking about!(the same Google search will direct you to some of his
other thought-provoking writings.)

Subject: Muslims, terrorist and the USA. A different spin on Iraq war.

This WAR is for REAL! Dr. Vernon Chong, Major General, USAF, Retired

Tuesday, July 12, 2005
To get out of a difficulty, one usually must go through it. Our country
is now facing the most serious threat to its existence, as we know it,
that we have faced in your lifetime and mine (which includes WWII).

The deadly seriousness is greatly compounded by the fact that there are
very few of us who think we can possibly lose this war and even fewer who
realize what losing really means.

First, let's examine a few basics:

1. When did the threat to us start?
Many will say September 11, 2001. The answer as far as the United States
is concerned is 1979, 22 years prior to September 2001, with the
following attacks on us:

* Iran Embassy Hostages, 1979;
* Beirut, Lebanon Embassy 1983;
* Beirut, Lebanon Marine Barracks 1983;
* Lockerbie, Scotland Pan-Am flight to New York 1988;
* First New York World Trade Center attack 1993;
* Dhahran, Saudi Arabia Khobar Towers Military complex 1996;
* Nairobi, Kenya US Embassy 1998;
* Dares Salaam, Tanzania US Embassy 1998;
* Aden, Yemen USS Cole 2000;
* New York World Trade Center 2001;
* Pentagon 2001.

(Note that during the period from 1981 to 2001 there were 7,581 terrorist
attacks worldwide).

2.. Why were we attacked?

Envy of our position, our success, and our freedoms. The attacks happened
during the administrations of Presidents Carter, Reagan, Bush 1, Clinton and
Bush 2. We cannot fault either the Republicans or Democrats as there were
no provocations by any of the presidents or their immediate predecessors,
Presidents Ford or Carter.

3. Who were the attackers?
In each case, the attacks on the US were carried out by Muslims.

4. What is the Muslim population of the World? 25%.

5. Isn't the Muslim Religion peaceful?
Hopefully, but that is really not material. There is no doubt that the
predominately Christian population of Germany was peaceful, but under
the dictatorial leadership of Hitler (who was also Christian), that made no
difference. You either went along with the administration or you were
eliminated. There were 5 to 6 million Christians killed by the Nazis for
political reasons (including 7,000 Polish priests). (see
http://www.nazis.testimony.co.uk/7-a.htm )

Thus, almost the same number of Christians were killed by the Nazis, as
the six million holocaust Jews who were killed by them, and we seldom
heard of anything other than the Jewish atrocities. Although Hitler kept
the world focused on the Jews, he had no hesitancy about killing anyone
who got in his way of exterminating the Jews or of taking over the world
- German, Christian or any others.

Same with the Muslim terrorists. They focus the world on theUS, but kill
all in the way -- their own people or the Spanish, French or anyone else.
The point here is that just like the peaceful Germans were of no protection
to anyone from the Nazis, no matter how many peaceful Muslims there may
be, they are no protection for us from the terrorist Muslim leaders and what
they are fanatically bent on doing -- by their own pronouncements -- killing
all of us "infidels." I don't blame the peaceful Muslims. What would you do
if the choice was shut up or die?

6. So who are we at war with?

There is no way we can honestly respond that it is anyone other than the
Muslim terrorists. Trying to be politically correct and avoid verbalizing this
conclusion can well be fatal. There is no way to win if you don't clearly
recognize and articulate who you are fighting.

So with that background, now to the two major questions:

1. Can we lose this war?

2. What does losing really mean?

If we are to win, we must clearly answer these two pivotal questions

We can definitely lose this war, and as anomalous as it may sound, the
major reason we can lose is that so many of us simply do not fathom the
answer to the second question - What does losing mean?

It would appear that a great many of us think that losing the war means
hanging our heads, bringing the troops home and going on about our
business, like post Vietnam. This is as far from the truth as one can get.

What losing really means is:

We would no longer be the premier country in the world. The attacks will
not subside, but rather will steadily increase. Remember, they want us
dead, not just quiet. If they had just wanted us quiet, they would not have
produced an increasing series of attacks against us, over the past 18 years.
The plan was clearly, for terrorist to attack us, until we were neutered and
submissive to them.

We would of course have no future support from other nations, for fear of
reprisals and for the reason that they would see, we are impotent and
cannot help them.

They will pick off the other non-Muslim nations, one at a time. It will
be increasingly easier for them. They already hold Spainhostage. It
doesn't matter whether it was right or wrong for Spain to withdraw its
troops from Iraq. Spain did it because the Muslim terrorists bombed their
train and told them to withdraw the troops. Anything else they want Spain
to do will be done. Spain is finished.

The next will probably be France. Our one hope on France is that they
might see the light and realize that if we don't win, they are finished
too, in that they can't resist the Muslim terrorists without us. However,
it may already be too late for France. France is already 20% Muslim and
fading fast!

If we lose the war, our production, income, exports and way of life will
all vanish as we know it. After losing, who would trade or deal with us,
if they were threatened by the Muslims. If we can't stop the Muslims, how
could anyone else?

The Muslims fully know what is riding on this war, and therefore are
completely committed to winning, at any cost. We better know it too and
be likewise committed to winning at any cost.

Why do I go on at such lengths about the results of losing? Simple. Until
we recognize the costs of losing, we cannot unite and really put 100% of
our thoughts and efforts into winning. And it is going to take that 100%
effort to win.

So, how can we lose the war?

Again, the answer is simple. We can lose the war by "imploding." That is,
defeating ourselves by refusing to recognize the enemy and their purpose,
and really digging in and lending full support to the war effort If we are
united, there is no way that we can lose. If we continue to be divided,
there is no way that we can win!

Let me give you a few examples of how we simply don't comprehend the
life and death seriousness of this situation.

President Bush selects Norman Mineta as Secretary of Transportation.
Although all of the terrorist attacks were committed by Muslim men
between 17 and 40 years of age, Secretary Mineta refuses to allow
profiling. Does that sound like we are taking this thing seriously? This
is war! For the duration, we are going to have to give up some of the
civil rights we have become accustomed to. We had better be prepared to
lose some of our civil rights temporarily or we will most certainly lose all
of them permanently.

And don't worry that it is a slippery slope. We gave up plenty of civil
rights during WWII, and immediately restored them after the victory and
in fact added many more since then.

Do I blame President Bush or President Clinton before him?

No, I blame us for blithely assuming we can maintain all of our Political
Correctness, and all of our civil rights during this conflict and have a
clean, lawful, honorable war. None of those words apply to war. Get them
out of your head.

Some have gone so far in their criticism of the war and/or the Administration
that it almost seems they would literally like to see us lose. I hasten to add
that this isn't because they are disloyal. It is because they just don't recognize
what losing means. Nevertheless, that conduct gives the impression to the
enemy that we are divided and weakening. It concerns our friends, and it
does great damage to our cause.

Of more recent vintage, the uproar fueled by the politicians and media
regarding the treatment of some prisoners of war, perhaps exemplifies
best what I am saying. We have recently had an issue, involving the
treatment of a few Muslim prisoners of war, by a small group of our
military police. These are the type prisoners who just a few months ago
were throwing their own people off buildings, cutting off their hands,
cutting out their tongues and otherwise murdering their own people just
for disagreeing with Saddam Hussein.

And just a few years ago these same type prisoners chemically killed
400,000 of their own people for the same reason. They are also the same
type of enemy fighters, who recently were burning Americans, and dragging
their charred corpses through the streets of Iraq.

And still more recently, the same type of enemy that was and is providing
videos to all news sources internationally, of the beheading of American
prisoners they held.

Compare this with some of our press and politicians, who for several days
have thought and talked about nothing else but the "humiliating" of some
Muslim prisoners -- not burning them, not dragging their charred corpses
through the streets, not beheading them, but "humiliating" them.

Can this be for real?

The politicians and pundits have even talked of impeachment of the Secretary
of Defense. If this doesn't show the complete lack of comprehension and
understanding of the seriousness of the enemy we are fighting, the life and
death struggle we are in and the disastrous results of losing this war, nothing
can.

To bring our country to a virtual political standstill over this prisoner issue
makes us look like Nero playing his fiddle as Rome burned -- totally oblivious
to what is going on in the real world. Neither we, nor any other country, can
survive this internal strife. Again I say, this does not mean that some of our
politicians or media people are disloyal. It simply means that they are absolutely
oblivious to the magnitude, of the situation we are in and into which the Muslim
terrorists have been pushing us, for many years.

Remember, the Muslim terrorists stated goal is to kill all infidels! That
translates into ALL non-Muslims -- not just in the United State, but
throughout the world.

We are the last bastion of defense.

We have been criticized for many years as being 'arrogant.' That charge
is valid in at least one respect. We are arrogant in that we believe that
we are so good, powerful and smart, that we can win the hearts and minds
of all those who attack us, and that with both hands tied behind our
back, we can defeat anything bad in the world!

We can't!

If we don't recognize this, our nation as we know it will not survive,
and no other free country in the world will survive if we are defeated.

And finally, name any Muslim countries throughout the world that allow
freedom of speech, freedom of thought, freedom of religion, freedom of
the press, equal rights for anyone -- let alone everyone, equal status or
any status for women, or that have been productive in one single way that
contributes to the good of the world.

This has been a long way of saying that we must be united on this war or
we will be equated in the history books to the self-inflicted fall of the
Roman Empire . If, that is, the Muslim leaders will allow history books
to be written or read.

If we don't win this war right now, keep a close eye on how the Muslims
take over France in the next 5 years or less. They will continue to increase
the Muslim population of France and continue to encroach little by little,
on the established French traditions. The French will be fighting among
themselves, over what should or should not be done, which will continue
to weaken them and keep them from any united resolve. Doesn't that
sound eerily familiar?

Democracies don't have their freedoms taken away from them by some
external military force. Instead, they give their freedoms away, politically
correct piece by politically correct piece.

And they are giving those freedoms away to those who have shown,
worldwide that they abhor freedom and will not apply it to you or even to
themselves, once they are in power.

They have universally shown that when they have taken over, they then
start brutally killing each other over who will be the few who control the
masses. Will we ever stop hearing from the politically correct, about the
"peaceful Muslims"?

I close on a hopeful note, by repeating what I said above. If we are
united, there is no way that we can lose. I hope now after the election,
the factions in our country will begin to focus on the critical situation
we are in, and will unite to save our country. It is your future we are
talking about! Do whatever you can to preserve it.

After reading the above, we all must do this not only for ourselves, but
our children, our grandchildren, our country and the world.

Whether Democrat or Republican, conservative or liberal and that include
the Politicians and media of our country and the free world!

Please forward this to any you feel may want, or NEED to read it. Our
"leaders" in Congress ought to read it, too. There are those that find
fault with our country, but it is obvious to anyone who truly thinks
through this, that we must UNITE!

If you would like to see who this fellow is go to this Air Force web
sight and look him up.
http://www.af.mil/bios/alpha.asp?alpha=C

MAJOR GENERAL (DR.) VERNON CHONG

?

Bio Tools
?Printable bio

Retired Nov. 1, 1994.??

Major General (Dr.) Vernon Chong is the command surgeon, Headquarters U.S. European Command, Stuttgart, Germany. He advises the commander in chief on all medical matters and health issues that may affect the readiness of military forces in the command. He is responsible for establishing policies for the employment of theater medical resources during crisis, contingency and humanitarian relief operations. Also, he coordinates and integrates medical support activities and develops theater medical plans.

The general entered the Air Force in October 1963 following the completion of a residency in general surgery. He was certified by the American Board of Surgery in April 1964. He has commanded three Air Force medical centers, served as command surgeon of two major air commands, and was commander of the Joint Military Medical Command, San Antonio. The general is a chief flight surgeon, and was a surgeon/flight surgeon member of the DOD launch site recovery team for 15 space launches during the Apollo, Skylab and Apollo-Soyuz programs.

EDUCATION
1955 Bachelor of arts degree in basic medical sciences, Stanford University
1958 Doctor of medicine, Stanford University School of Medicine
1963 Board qualification in general surgery, General Hospital of Fresno County

ASSIGNMENTS
1 October 1963 - June 1965, staff general surgeon and chief of general surgery service, USAF Hospital Scott, Scott Air Force Base, Ill.
2. June 1965 - June 1968, staff general surgeon, later director of intern and resident education, USAF Hospital Tachikawa, Tachikawa Air Base, Japan
3. June 1968 - June 1970, staff general surgeon and instructor in general surgery residency, David Grant USAF Medical Center, Travis Air Force Base, Calif.
4. June 1970 - June 1974, staff general surgeon, chairman department of surgery, and director of hospital services, USAF Academy Hospital, U.S. Air Force Academy, Colorado Springs, Colo.
5. June 1974 - August 1976, staff general surgeon, director of hospital services, and deputy commander, USAF Regional Hospital March, March Air Force Base, Calif.
6. September 1976 - October 1978, staff general surgeon, director of hospital services, and deputy commander, David Grant USAF Medical Center, Travis Air Force Base, Calif.
7. October 1978 - November 1981, commander, David Grant USAF Medical Center, Travis Air Force Base, Calif.
8. November 1981 - March 1985, commander, Malcolm Grow USAF Medical Center, Andrews Air Force Base, Md.
9. March 1985 - February 1987, command surgeon, Headquarters Military Airlift Command, Scott Air Force Base, Calif.
10. February 1987 - May 1990, commander, Wilford Hall USAF Medical Center, Lackland Air Force Base, Texas
11. May 1990 - August 1991, command surgeon, Headquarters Air Training Command, and commander, Joint Military Medical Command, Randolph Air Force Base, Texas
12. August 1991 - present, command surgeon, Headquarters U.S. European Command, Stuttgart, Germany

FLIGHT INFORMATION
Rating: Chief flight surgeon
Flight hours: More than 1,600
Aircraft flown: C-141, KC-135, C-130, T-29, C-5, T-39, C-21, C-12, C-9A, T-33, T-38, H-53, H-3, UH-1

MAJOR AWARDS AND DECORATIONS
Distinguished Service Medal
Legion of Merit with oak leaf cluster
Meritorious Service Medal
Air Force Commendation Medal
National Defense Service Medal
Vietnam Service Medal
Order of Merit-Brazil
Gold Cross of Honor-Germany

OTHER ACHIEVEMENTS
Order of the Sword - bestowed by enlisted personnel of Air Training Command
Clinical professor of surgery, University of Texas Health Science Center-San Antonio
Ira C. Eaker fellow - Air Force Association, Aerospace Education Foundation
Board of Governors, American College of Surgeons
Board of Regents, National Library of Medicine
Board of Regents, adviser, Uniformed Services University of the Health Sciences
Board of Trustees, Air Force Village Foundation
Board of Directors, Alamo Chapter, American Red Cross, San Antonio

EFFECTIVE DATES OF PROMOTION
Captain Oct 14, 1963
Major Dec 15, 1966
Lieutenant Colonel Aug 8, 1968
Colonel Jun 15, 1973
Brigadier General Oct 1, 1982
Major General Apr 15, 1987

(Current as of May 1994)Sub

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Bootsie · Joined: 22 Jun 2006 Posts: 492

I agree with a lot of his points BUT I never believed that Iraq had anything to do with 9/11 and I NEVER thought we should invade Iraq. I knew that what we have created is another haven for terrorists. When we went into Iraq, there was ONE supposed Al Qaeda member--al Zarqawi. There was a terrorist cell in the KURDISH area of Iraq--an area not even controlled by Saddam. Now we have FINALLY killed Zarqawi and what has happened??? YET MORE VIOLENCE and insurgence. The Iraqi's do NOT want us there. The MUSLIMS don't want us there. It has created a ticking time bomb every day we are there.

I was ONE HUNDRED PERCENT behind Bush when he took us to Afghanistan. After he pulled most of our troops out of there WAY TOO SOON and sent them to Iraq, he lost me. We should be out there hunting down these Muslim terrorists with every resource we have---not being caught up in a civil war in Iraq. All we've done is given Iran and Syria another ally. You have surely heard Iraq's Prime Minister lambasting Israel for going after Hezbollah. Is THIS what we've wasted our human and fiscal resources on? Is THIS what our soldiers have DIED for or been permanently MAIMED for? This has just created a crescent of Shiite Muslims who are hell-bent on a HOLY WAR. I don't agree that it's our prosperity that they resent. I don't agree that it's our freedoms that they resent. What they want is a MUSLIM WORLD. It's really very simple.

Having said all of that, I think that pulling our troops out right now would PROBABLY be a mistake though, with each day that passes, I am more and more doubting even THAT position. Iraq will NEVER be a democracy.
I swear--I KNEW that in my GUT before we ever went in there. Iraq will be the exact same thing that Iran is---a THEOCRACY. That is already patently obvious. It is not incumbent upon the US to change the Middle East because I don't believe it can be done. Look at the Middle East right now. Have we HELPED the situation or HARMED the situation. I believe we have done irreparable damage by invading Iraq. We can't take it upon ourselves to risk one more American life to get rid of every HORRIBLE DICTATOR in this world. It can't be done. We have bitten off more than we can chew even at this point. Just look at ALL of the brutal dictators in this world. Does this man suggest we just send our forces into every country where genocide is occurring? Why then are we not doing ANYTHING about countries like Darfur where it is SO MUCH WORSE than what Saddam was doing? I believe we had Saddam PRETTY MUCH CONTAINED. Afghanistan is fast regressing to an area controlled by the Taliban because we just don't have enough forces to do anything about it.
After almost 4 years, we STILL have not caught bin Laden or al Zawahiri.
THOSE are the terrorists who attacked America. The 9/11 Commission determined that Saddam was, in no way, connected to 9/11. Why is it that some Americans are still convinced that he was? This administration is why. They have been so shady when they speak of 9/11 and Iraq and the neo-cons are still trying to SUGGEST that there was a connection.

I just become IRATE when anyone suggests that Iraq is part of the war on terror. It might be NOW but it sure wasn't when we invaded. WE have given them the perfect training ground. WE have given the Muslims
more reason to want to destroy us because WE are occupying THEIR HOLY GROUND. What I DO agree with is that this battle is against violent Muslims and there should DEFINITELY be profiling. Being policitally correct is NOT AN OPTION anymore.

OK--I REACTED!!!

Jezzabell · Joined: 03 Jul 2006 Posts: 72

I would prefer we pulled out. Or that we had never gone at all. But, if what this author say's is true, then Bush needs to stop lolly gaging around and level the country. This is absurd what he has our men doing over there at the moment. We are quickly rolling back to were the war was at in the first few weeks. Either bomb the hell out of everything or leave. But, do not continue to send our young people over there to hold hands with them and be sitting ducks to die.

They were stupid for turning absolute power over to Iraq while our troops were still there. Now they fight and die in this foriegn land while the Iraq priminister mouths off and supports an Iranian terriorist group! What complete disrespect. Then in the same week comes begging for more troops! *(*&(^%$&$% pig!

Bootsie · Joined: 22 Jun 2006 Posts: 492

And, NOW they are going to GET more troops. He wouldn't SEND the troops when they were really needed. He waits until we have helped foment a civil war and agrees to send in Military Police to do the job that the Iraqi police can't or WON'T do. Their police force and military are already SO CORRUPT that they can't be trusted to protect their country.
A LOT of them are from Shiite militias and we know what THEY want done with their country. You're right, Jezz. The minute our troops leave the Green Zone, they are just sitting ducks. I swear, I think history will prove that this Iraq war was the biggest mistake ever made by our government. I think we've started something in the Middle East that neither we nor anyone else will ever be able to resolve. We continue to make MORE enemies around the world. It's NOT just the Middle East. Europe, with the exception of Tony Blair, was absolutely right in refusing to help us in Iraq. AND, the people of Great Britain opposed Blair's actions from the get-go. When are we going to admit that what we did was WRONG? And, even more important, how are we going to correct it?

The Fox · Joined: 23 Jun 2006 Posts: 112

As the article points out this is not the 'beginning' of terrorism. It's been going on against us and all other Christian nations for many years. They had declared a jihad against us long ago and for no reason.

The original mistake was for the Brits and the Americans to go in there and develop the resources of those countries making them the richest people in the world.( We didn't have to do it...we had S. America, Mexico, North Sea, Australia, etc.) In less than 20 years they went from riding camels and donkeys to riding jets. Most of them totally lack education. When I was there they would put the tops of pens in their shirt pockets to make folks think they could write. Of course they couldn't, nor could they read. They believe what they're told by there mullahs.AND believe it absolutely.

When we developed their oil fields the agreement with Saudi, Kuwait etc was that they would always sell their oil using the dollar as currency. After the Gulf War Saddam began selling in euros. That would have totally collapsed our economy, destroyed our country.

Financial centers and currencies ( as demonstrated by China manipulating their currency in order to get a better deal out of trading with us) are another weapon in the war of terror. That's why Bush invaded. No matter who was president if our economy is to be supported we would have had to go against whichever country broke their word to us after what we did to develop their resouces.We could NOT allow the opec nations to begin to use the euro.

The source of this goes back even further in our history. When President Roosevelt took us off the gold standard in '33 that was the beginning of our destruction. That made us vulnerable to many things...the manipulations of currency by our government...the Federal Reserve Bank, which is not federal at all....the ensuing inflations and deflations of our money which robs us of what we work for...etc and so on.We've all suffered much from the inflationary forces, but that's another discussion.

Gen. Tommy Franks ( my cousin) was the one who decided what number of troops would go into Iraq. There was an oversight there b/c it was believed that Iraqi's would welcome us since they had asked us to help them depose Saddam during Gulf Storm..and then abandoned them to Saddam's revenge. They didn't forget that, they didn't trust us. ( Gen.Tommy Franks, you will recall, retired immediately after the invasion due to the interference of Rummy.) And now many of them want revenge on the US in payment for the revenge of Saddam that they suffered when we left. Reportedly 250,000 Iraqi's suffered horrible deaths.

And yes, there were terrorist training camps in Iraq when we invaded. And, yes, there were WMD there before we invaded. One of their top brass gave an interview on CNN last week talking about that very thing...he said the WMD were moved into Syria but wouldn't speculate on whether any had gone to Lebanon. Figure it did.

The war on terror is much more involved that it appears on the surface. We not only don't want to lose...we cannot lose. If we have to go in there with nuclear weapons ( there are 1 billion muslims fighting us).

I'm very pleased to see that Israel has decided to take on hezbollah. Yes, people are dying. If the fanatic muslims should win...we'll ALL die.And not prettily, either.

I've lived in that region...Kuwait, Iran, Lebanon...I know something about the rank and file muslim. Believe me, you won't understand them. You're not prepared to understand them. I certainly wasn't.

Fox

butterbean · Joined: 21 Jun 2006 Posts: 2271

I dont think going into Iraq was the best approach. I believe we should have just assassinated Saddam. You cant "win" a war, where you cant face the target. We dont know who the enemy is, or where to find it.
Islamists spread like cancer throughout the world. And they multiply and multiply. I dont care who gets offended, but we definitely should be profiling constantly. Unfortunately, because we are a nation where freedom of religion is granted, we throw out the welcome mat to evil people. Peaceful religion, my *. All of them may not practice or participate in the killings of infidels, but that is what they are taught in the koran. So the "peaceful" ones just look the other way, while their "islamic brothers and sisters" do the killing. Confused

Bootsie · Joined: 22 Jun 2006 Posts: 492

I hate to disagree, Fox, but the WHOLE thing was a miscalculation. From beginning to wherever we are now because we are nowhere NEAR the end. No, I haven't lived in an Arab country and don't, first hand, understand their culture but I know all I want to know about it. They HATE US. That's all I need to know. But, invading Iraq didn't do anything but make them hate us more and make them more dedicated to the goal of eradicating us. I would have felt this way if ANY President had made that decision. It was a bad mistake from the get-go and it is only getting worse. We will probably NEVER get out of there. I still say that, in the position that Iraq was in before the invasion, they were NOT a threat to us and that's really all that matters to me.

Patriot · Site Admin Joined: 10 Jan 2006 Posts: 471

The only way to beat these Islamofacists is to supply both sides with conventional weapons and fuel a civil war. That way they are content to kill one another instead of killing us. It would be so easy to do and no Americans would have to die to carry it out.

Patriot

Bootsie · Joined: 22 Jun 2006 Posts: 492

That is an EXCELLENT SOLUTION, Patriot!! Never would have thought of that. Just foment a rebellion between ALL of them and let them wipe each OTHER out. They don't seem to have any problems killing Muslims that are not their particular brand of Islam. Well, it doesn't seem like they have any problem killing their OWN.

Dream · Joined: 23 Jun 2006 Posts: 427

Bootsie · Joined: 22 Jun 2006 Posts: 492

This Bush has gotten us into such a mess that I am SURE we will never come out of it intact. At least the first Bush had enough sense NOT to try to go to Baghdad. He KNEW what would happen. Sometimes, I get the feeling that Bush the son does things just the opposite of his father because of some psychological need to be different or SOMETHING!!! SURELY, there is SOME deep-seated emotional problem that has caused him to * up everything he has touched. I'm just being generous now!

I also agree with you, Dream, that it is the poor who are enlisting out of sheer desperation. If this fool is going to take us helter-skelter into every country that has an evil dictator, they will HAVE to reinstate the draft and that is not going to go over well with all of his wealthy buddies because, this time, I hope that they make darn sure there will be NO GETTING OUT OF SERVING. Maybe they should be like Israel and require EVERY young person to serve a mandatory couple of years in the military. I bet if HIS daughters were going to have to go to war, he would have thought more than twice about messing in everyone else's business. Let the PEOPLE of Iraq rise up and get rid of their own dictator.
Same with Iran, Syria, Saudi Arabia, THE WORKS. In my opinion, if Bush was going to go after the real TERRORISTS, he would have gone on to Saudi Arabia after he finished in Afghanistan. After all, that was the home of 15 of the 19 hijackers. Just makes sense to me.

cornbread · Joined: 23 Jun 2006 Posts: 112

Bush is so arrogant that he thinks he can change things in Iraq. Those people over there have fought since the beginning of time and will continue to do so. All Bush has accomplished in Iraq is getting our young soldiers killed and making the rest of the world hate us. Nothing else has changed over there and I don't think it ever will.

Bootsie · Joined: 22 Jun 2006 Posts: 492

That's the absolute truth, cornbread. Anyone who thinks they can change thousands of years of history is a fool. These neo-cons who think they can mold and shape the Middle East into a peaceful bunch of democratic states are delusional. It will just never happen. And, I just heard that we have already spent over THREE BILLION dollars on Iraq. THREE BILLION! Not to even MENTION the lives of our young soldiers AND the ones who are permanently maimed for WHAT? It has been one royal *-up from before they ever went in and, when you think things couldn't get worse, they get worse. I think I heard that 16 of our troops had been killed in the last week. I MAY have misunderstood that but it was a LOT.

Every single thing that they told us would happen has been wrong. I don't know whether you can blame it on Rumsfeld, Cheney or WHO but, if they say it, you can bet it's going to prove to be the opposite. Where is all of the Iraqi oil money that was going to pay for this war???? And, when we didn't get the person the administration wanted to be Prime Minister, we get someone who announces to the world that he is supportive of Hezbollah. That's what they got from those elections that they bragged so much about.

The Fox · Joined: 23 Jun 2006 Posts: 112

Admittedly the ME is a quagmire. It's a * if you do and * if you don't situation. We'd allowed them to perpetrate violence upon our people with no response to the point that they were emboldened to attack us on our own soil.

What the uneducated masses do understand is violence and more violence. We're seemingly not a violent nation...however, in my humble opinion the only that that would have taught them any respect at all would to have been the total annihilation of whatever country they came from.

Patriot may have the only possible solution to the thousand years of war in the ME.

If, by some miracle, there IS a solution.

Fox